Design or Accident?

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Design or Accident?

Postby Adrian Jones » Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:18 pm

Bit of an odd question, and in this case I'm asking it because of DfW 6 and not Ff, but here goes:

Please don't ask why DfW 6, but I have just taken live a client's app, having moved it from DOS 5.

One cause of frustration for them with the new environment is the way 'form open related'/F10 filters related records, because they were used to F10 navigation not only showing related records, but ALL records in a form if you hit ESC.

My question is: was this DOS behaviour by design or by accident?

I've got too used to the DfW/Ff way this works,and certainly don't want it changed. Just curious as to whether it was a designed feature of DOS (possibly due to the lack of any other way to navigate to other forms when inside a form), not not.
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Re: Design or Accident?

Postby Graham Smith » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:19 pm

Adrian Jones wrote:My question is: was this DOS behaviour by design or by accident?

Pete can answer this better than I can but I do somewhat recall the conversation/argument that ensued when this turned up in Express (at least I think it was Express).

I believe that the behavior in DfW/FF was intended to fix a perceived shortcoming in DfD. That is, when you jumped to a related record, the filter was only transient - you could "break out" of that set and wander around the records. This was considered by many to be a design flaw and a security issue.
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Re: Design or Accident?

Postby Adrian Jones » Mon Jan 18, 2016 5:20 pm

Thanks Graham -- that is how I interpret it!

Unfortunately my client saw it as a feature, and therefore is wondering why it is broken (when in fact it could be the case that it is fixed).

Somewhere there must a psychological study in this logic. I'll ask Dr Lynette.
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Re: Design or Accident?

Postby Graham Smith » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:52 pm

Adrian Jones wrote:Somewhere there must a psychological study in this logic. I'll ask Dr Lynette.

There actually is a lot of food for a study, probably a lot of studies.

I frequent a Windows technical forum and there's been a whole bunch of heated discussions about the new direction Microsoft is heading with Windows 10. Basically, they seem to be moving to the Apple camp which believes in the "Shut up and eat your spinach - it's good for you." software development model.

A lot of people who have been doing something a particular way are extremely resistant to change. Even when it's pointed out to them that what they have been doing is really a bad thing, they resist the change. Even when the majority view is that the new way is better, some resist the change.

I spent about three months converting a DfD system to DfW. I told the boss that the application was extremely poorly designed (it was basically built upside down) and that it relied on things (including the same as this topic) that wasn't supported or practical in DfW. I showed them how they could work more efficiently if the app were changed just a bit.

Long story short, the person who did the bulk of the record entry took one look at the first working copy and refused to have anything to do with it. Either it was going to be EXACTLY like her DfD app or she wouldn't touch it. She simply didn't have the time or interest in anything new. And her employers couldn't budge her and no one else knew her job and that was the end of that.
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Re: Design or Accident?

Postby DavidAGray » Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:13 am

Your way of describing the Apple camp is rather amusing. However, my take is a tad different. While Windows 8.x most definitely represented the "Shut up and eat your spinach" approach, I see Windows 10 as retreating a little from it. NTOH, when I saw Windows 8, the first thing that came to mind was its resemblance to the standard StarFleet console display. About 20 years ago, I got to see one, up close, and I was very impressed with how easy it was to use.
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Re: Design or Accident?

Postby Pete Tabord » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:13 am

TBH, as an operating system for commercial use (as opposed to flogging to kiddies on their latest toy) I have no idea what MS have been doing since XP - Windows 7, which is really rather excellent, seems to have happened almost as a panic move, and now, in typical Gates fashion, they just keep repackaging the unpalatable features in a different form and hoping someone will find a use for them.

With Win 10, you cannot refuse, select, or delay upgrades. That effectively means my machine isn't mine any more, and I'm not happy with that. For the first time in 20 years, I'm seriously looking at Linux again.

I would be interested to see what possible financial justification (apart from fear of obsolescence) a company could put forward for moving from Win 7 to Win 10, even though the software is free - and not wholly bad, once you work out how to bypass the idiot screens.

The cloud, incidentally , is useless to me personally, having been without an internet connection at home for something like 3 months out of the last 8. There appears to be little interest in maintaining even a minimal broadband to rural areas in the UK, despite the fact I pay the same for it as if I lived in London.
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Re: Design or Accident?

Postby Graham Smith » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:11 pm

I've got mixed feelings about what MS is doing, but it's worth considering that what we see now is a good indication of what is to come.

Those who remember the war over the integration of IE into Windows may recall that MS was of the opinion that the future of computing was web based. They have been moving in that direction ever since. And it's not just MS, everything is becoming dependent on "The Cloud" (gawd how I hate that expression along with "The Experience" and "My Documents" - can we get any more childish?)

But I think MS takes the prize for blurring the line between desktop apps and cloud based. OneNote is a grand example. There is a strictly web based version; there are iPad and Android cloud dependent apps; there is a WX (WindowsX/Metro/Modern/Universal/Whatever) app that's similar to the iPad and Android cloud dependent versions; there is a free Office2016 version that is a crippleware Office365 version that's tied to the cloud but not 100% dependent on it; there is the Office365 versions which is also tied to the cloud but can generate and use local docs; and there is the desktop Office version which is very similar to the Office365. The key is that with exception of the last, all of the other versions require you to have OneDrive, the MS cloud drive.

Here's what's seems to be coming:
--Strictly desktop versions of Office will become less appealing as MS is basically giving away Office365 if you have a yearly subscription to a OneDrive account (or the other way around if you prefer). Version numbers are gone because this app will be automatically upgraded.
--Win10 (WinX) is likely also the last numbered version of Windows because it's also designed to be automatically upgraded, and there is almost nothing you can do to stop that.
--OneDrive has become pretty much mandatory. They were giving away 30GB up until the start of 2016, now it's down to 5GB which is enough if you only store documents. But the clear goal is a subscription.
--It's fairly likely that within 5yrs we will be looking at Win365 which rolls up Windows, Office, and OneDrive into a single yearly subscription. Right now Office365 is $100 per year, with enough people on board, they can offer Win365 for less than that.

Pete makes the best case against this whole approach - it's dependent on internet access. And not just access, reliable high speed access. A ChromeBook is almost useless without an internet connection.

P.S. If you have Win10Pro, you can change updates to notify only and defer upgrades, but you have to be comfortable changing GroupPolicies to do it.
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Re: Design or Accident?

Postby leethr » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:13 pm

With Windows 10, you can delay the updates on the Pro/Enterprise editions, it's just the home version where your now governed by MS as to when updates are installed.

MS also seem to be starting to employ the Apple bully tactic of unless your on the latest hardware/software we simply won't support you. http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/16/10780 ... rs-skylake

Even starting with the Intel Skylake architecture with the exception of a handful support will not be made available for 7 or 8. So depending upon a companies hardware replacement/refresh cycle they could find them selves being forced to upgrade to 10 simply because they can't get hardware supported by 7 anymore. Very much an Apple tactic considering 7 isn't supposed to be out of support until 2020. And windows 8 isn't even out of mainstream support until 2018.
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Re: Design or Accident?

Postby earlwer » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:20 pm

leethr wrote:With Windows 10, you can delay the updates on the Pro/Enterprise editions, it's just the home version where your now governed by MS as to when updates are installed.


You can control GWX using the GWX Control Panel.
GWX = Get Windows 10 (and suffer...)
http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/
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Re: Design or Accident?

Postby Pete Tabord » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:11 pm

Back to the topic - the decision regarding 'esc' was taken before my time in the US. I had very little to do with Express even when I got there. It was only after Arun and Fred Holohan left that I was given the kettle to hold.(The bottom may not have been burned but two thirds or more of the people who had worked on the Windows codebase up to then left with one or other of those two). Luckily I remained on good terms with Arun and was able to ask him the occasional question and I was able to lure one or two others who had left earlier back into the fold.

That reminds me of the 'Required field not entered' cartoon - it still brings a smile to my face remembering it! I'm easily amused :-)

I don't know whether Arun would have been consulted but I would expect him to have been - it will have been he or Jeff Barca-Hall who made the decision.

However, that is all ancient history.

Has anyone come up with a workaround? I also have a customer who really, really dislikes this 'restriction' as he sees it.
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